Is public censure a good thing or a bad thing? First, some background: Where I live we have a huge problem with drivers running red lights and mowing down pedestrians. Recently the newspaper ran an editorial praising law enforcement's latest campaign to raise awareness of the problem and get people's anger up, to in effect encourage the general public to wag their fingers at red-light runners instead of looking the other way. Also they posted signs on major roadways with actual stupid reasons people have given for running red lights: "I was dialing my cell phone" and "I was afraid I'd miss the start of the game." The idea was to show people how silly they sounded and make them realize it wasn't worth risking someone's life for.

The editorial said that public censure can go a long way in changing people's behavior. When you know that an action is going to get you a dirty look or even a scolding from whoever happens to be nearby, you're less likely to perform that action, right? It went on to say that the fading of public censure in favor of the "none of my business" mindset has been a major factor in the deterioration of society. Back when everyone minded other people's business, and kept each other in line, people behaved better and had better manners. They respected each other more. Now, people fear each other. Asking someone to watch their language in front of your children is likely to get you a curse flung in your face. Cutting off another driver can get you shot.

So I was thinking about this, remembering a few instances when I had been blown away by a "Screw you, I'll do what I want" attitude, and by the unwillingness of anyone to challenge it. Once I was waiting in a long line at an outlet store, and a woman cut into the line 5 people ahead of me. The person she cut directly in front of tried to protest, and she gave a mean look and said "I'm tired of waiting." Well, weren't we all? But no one would say anything else to her. They just let her stay where she was, clearly afraid or unwilling to fight it. Or, unwilling to lose their own place in line, like I was. Later, outside the store, I heard her talking to her companion, who had apparently just showed up to meet her. The companion asked how she got out so quickly. She told her, "I just cut in line. (surprised look from companion) No one will say anything. What can they do?" Another time, I (thinking I was being helpful) pointed out (in a very friendly tone) to the person in line behind me at the grocery store that she was in the express lane (9 items or less; her cart was full). She snapped back, "What are you, a cop?" No, just a thoughtful person, I thought--but I was so startled I didn't say anything. The cashier didn't say a word either--just rang up her 30+ items without comment as people in line sighed. I see that attitude a lot--this "I can do whatever I want, no one will dare say anything to me." And I see people looking away. I have looked away myself, out of fear, out of embarrassment at the possibility of being "caught" paying attention to someone else's activity.

So we go through life looking straight ahead, avoiding the eyes of strangers, minding our own business. At the same time, we are free to commit many discourtesies and pretend we don't know we are inconveniencing others, knowing we will get away with it, knowing no one will scold us. Of course, we are also free to do many things that would have been considered unacceptable say 50 years ago, when public censure was common--we can kiss our partners in public, wear shorts and leave our hats at home, nurse our babies anywhere. Well, ok, that last one is something that many people still feel free to comment on when they see it. Maybe in that way, public censure is a bad thing, when it's done out of ignorance.

But generally, I think that editorial had a point. When common courtesy was enforced by everyone, it was practiced by everyone--more or less. What happened to our society that made people fearful of speaking up in defense of courtesy, in protest of rudeness, in condemnation of selfish behaviors that endanger others? Any thoughts?

THE RESPONSES:

• After living in Japan for a couple years and then returning to America, I thought part of the problem was a lack of honor and I still do. Americans lack honor. We have no honor in ourselves, our nation, our leaders, our environment, our culture - at least the mass majority don't. Watching another culture and being immersed in it where honor is heightened, it's easy to see the difference. In Japan people aren't shot with guns - it wouldn't be within their honor; you'd drive 1/2 hour to get gas to honor your father's brother's gas station instead of someone unknown to your family; you honor children because they will raise those that will honor you when you are old.

  I've come to realize though that it is more than honor - it is the cheap materialistic live-life-to-its-fullest-and-that-means-have-as-much-as-you-can-have society that we live in... the media, the mass corporations.. all of those things have wrought the destruction of a sense of responsibility to oneself and one's community - don't like your next door neighbor's front yard - sue; don't like what so and so said to you - sue; felt bad when so and so looked at your crossly - sue. We live in a litigatious, self-centered society where even people who would like to stand up and say something fear backlash in the form of lawsuits or violence.

  I also think we've moved far away from a responsibility to ourselves - not only on a spiritual level but to our inner selves, being who we are. We aren't valued if we aren't doing what "society" says is right and therefore we put up a facade of ourselves so others think we are. Doing so brings us "out of ourselves" - what do we care, it isn't who we are anyway. Does that make sense?

• I agree. I've come to see this as an issue of personal honor. If it's something dangerous I think we need to speak out and get things changed. (We got traffic light cameras pt in to catch red light runners in my city.)

  But for the most part I see this as an issue of personal honour - the womyn who cuts in line to get out to meet a friend faster has little honour, the womyn who cuts in line because her baby can't nurse in a sling and she wants to accomodate that baby's needs has honour...it's too complicated an issue for me to waste my time disapproving of others any more. I wasted a lot of energy that way.

  An issue of personal honour for me that might cross into what you're talking about is I will not allow my child to witness other children being physically abused without saying something.

• I have actually thought about this a lot recently -- I think mostly due to my embarking upon this journey called motherhood. On one hand, being a mother makes me feel more righteous and more compelled than before to stand up and confront someone where before I would likely have looked the other way --- I'm trying to think of a specific example, but of course none are coming to mind right now.

  But on the other hand, since I have my son by my side 99.9% of the time, I'm also more safely concious and would be more fearful of provoking someone's anger and inadvertently endangering myself and/or my son... so at times I'm less likely to speak up. I *can* think of an instance where this was a factor. Ethan was about a month old and Kevin, my dh, the baby and Kev's sister and I were traveling from Virgina home to Maryland. We had pulled into a McDonalds parking lot and stopped so I could take the baby out of the car seat to nurse. While we were sitting in the car, we watched a drama unfold where a couple of teenaged boys were pursuing a younger looking girl (maybe 12-14 years old). She kept trying to call someone on the payphone but the boys kept hanging up the phone on her ... then she would try to walk away and they would block her path. We never saw them actually harm her, but it was obviously not a good situation. My DH wanted to get out and assist the girl, but I asked him not to--what if one of the kids had a knife or something? I felt selfish, but I didn't feel comfortable putting my husband and my family at risk. Fortunately, we were able to help in a way that was non-threatening to us. We spotted a policeman at a gas station across the street so we drove over there and let him know what we witnessed--he proceeded to get the situation under control and the last we saw was the girl getting into the police car, presumable for a safe ride home.

  Sorry for the long tirade ... hope it was semi coherent (it's really late / early in the am) ... I'm not sure what the solution to this is, but there is very definately a problem!

• With American society as it is today I just don't believe that public censure could ever happen in a way that does not in fact turn on itself and endanger the civil rights of everyone. Unfortunately, as others have said, we as a society just lack the moral honor and personal and social responsibility, and even worse we seek to blame others for anything we can get away with blaming others for. Not only that, but then there is the issue of what exactly is considered honorable - meaning, who would decide and how would this affect each individual and their rights? It could easily spill over into matters not of safety or courtesy but actual freedoms of choice/opinions.

  I have to say though that for every ten times I feel the urge to clean someone's clock over their rudeness it only takes one person's kindness to put a smile on my face and renew my hope in humanity! I swear, the other day I practically wanted to throw myself on this dear old man who literally insisted he help me out to my car with my full cart and two children. It was snowing like crazy, my car was parked all the way at the end of the lot, you get the picture. He had to be 80 years old, had a hunched back, and here he was to not only offer but insist upon helping me ...JUST BECAUSE it was in his heart to do so.

• Yes, that is one of the problems. We drove a couple hours north for Thanksgiving and brought my BIL along... in the car we had a heated debate about, since I don't want to go there, about one of the biggest debates in this nation. We were on different sides of the debate. One of the things we tried to get across to him is that if we begin putting our values and what we believe is right as law then we can effectively take away some of our own rights by opening up the door for all people to do the same. Here's the example I gave him. I wish spanking were illegal. He asked me if I see someone in a mall spank their child what I do and I said "I can't do anything, it's legal." He said "Why don't you fight to make it illegal" and I explained that if I fought for that there would be someone out there fighting to make breastfeeding illegal (or at least BFIP), or not vaccinating or, since its coming so close to it anyway, homebirth. We all have different ideas of honor and where the boundary lies - its almost too much diversity.

  All that said, I do think there is a difference, however, between this and type of innate honor I was discussing - that type of honor is just human honor and something I feel the majority of Americans have lost.

• I agree. It is public censure that makes some womyn uncomfortable bfip and others uncomfortable bottlefeeding in public - does the disapproval of strangers really help that womyn in any way, does it account for her life story? Not at all.

• Yes, this is true. Thinking back to those days 50 years ago (not that I was alive then!), that was also a time of widespread oppression and violation of civil rights.

• I agree that there's a lack of personal honor, as well as responsibility and respect, that has a deep impact on our society. In a perfect world, individuals would treat themselves, as well as others, with honor and respect because that's what would be in their souls. I think alot of rude and inconsiderate behavior comes from a deep sense of disconnection and alienation that comes with living in such an overly materialistic, greedy, violent, sick society. This is a fundamental problem in our society, and there's no quick, simple fix to it -- it gets at the very root at how we organize our lives and cultures.

  Public censure can do a part in helping people behave in more appropriate ways, but the danger is that they will "behave" simply because they don't want the censure, and not because they believe in the souls/hearts what the "respectful" way is. You know, the old saying, about the thief who isn't sorry he stole, but is damn sorry he got caught. The censure/shame doesn't address why he is stealing in the first place -- and maybe there's a valid reason for it (his family is starving) or maybe there's not (he's just a thief).

  Also, I think that often, individuals don't know quite *how* to behave themselves, but they can decide how others should *not* and that doesn't really lead to any real soul-searching or true change. And I worry when censure turns into shame/punitive-ness. This means that we run the risk of spending alot of our own time/energy worrying/"policing" what others do,and maybe being overly critical/judgemental/negative. The last thing we need is MORE negative/judgemental energy in this world!

  And frankly, I know that I don't want to carry everyone else's baggage around with me. BTDT, and it doesn't really help anyone, it just weighs you down. I'm trying to leave my own baggage behind so that the journey is easier and my own load is easier to bear. Plus, when people spend so much time worrying about how others are behaving, that means they are spending *less* time worrying about themselves. It's easy to get caught up in this mentality and become very self-righteous and arrogant as a result. I know, for example, that I've seen too much negative, critical behavior on-line that is all done in the name of very worthy causes/beliefs.

  And when I think about all the historical instances of women being shamed/censured for simply trying to assert themselves in a patriarchal world, well, it makes me shutter. In puritan New England, for example, a woman could be shamed simply for daring to speak in ways that were considered inappropriate/unwomanly -- and if she wasn't accused of witchcraft, she might be punished/fined/dunked or whatever just for transgressing the society's rules of "proper" behavior. Who gets to decide what is behavior worthy of "censure?" Sure, I'd like to see abusive parents shamed, but I certainly wouldn't want to see BFIP censured!!!

• • I like a lot of what you have to say. Funny - when I first saw this post, the first thing that came into my mind was the use of the stocks in Puritan New England. Public censure can cross lines far too easily. What I see is a general breakdown of civic responsibility. I think it comes from some of the self-centered behaviors that have been described above, but I think there are a couple of other factors at play, as well.

    First, I'd say there's a failure of society to fulfill it's 'contract' (to use a Burkeian term, although I prefer Mills' perspective). An individual should feel safe to comment on another's behaviour. The fact that several of us have mentioned that we don't indicates that our society is not fulfilling one of it's basic functions - ensuring free speech (and I don't mean that in a first amendment way).

    Secondly, I think there's also a self-worth issue that's being given short shrift. Obviously the offender in some of the above mentioned cases is behaving in a selfish manner. However, don't you think that, if safety is not a concern, the individuals who choose not to speak up are in some ways demonstrating that they don't feel their needs are 'worth' putting forward?

• Another thing I thought of -- the SIZE of the community affects public censure for good or for bad. In a small town environment having the community know your business and comment on it can be very reassuring and warm...or it can be extremely oppressive. As a bisexual witch there are PLENTY of places where THAT would mean I lived in fear. There are places where the fact that I'm a social anarchist means I'm under intense public scrutiny.

  It does come down to a sense of personal honour in these situations too...a small community can provide gentle warm support and that censure can come through as leading by example - being kind warm, redirecting behaviours the community doesn't feel are right without being oppressive, without calling attention to that which is undesirable, it can welcome someone into it's community...or it can slam down hard and violently on anything that the community finds distasteful, it can use brute force (policing), it can use alienation, it can cut people off from support of any kind through public pressure on anyone who might still be civil to the "offender." The thing is both do work in the short term...but they don't help change the person in the same way. In a welcoming gentle community a person will change their behaviour because they come to see it as a better way - they find honour in that behaviour. In an oppressive situation they learn not to get caught doing undesirable things or simply live in fear and they *lose* what honour they have.

  As a community grows and you know less about the individual being censured I think the motivation to be kind and redirect is lost...it takes too much time...so in a society that has abandoned the extended family, community living, face to face interactions, that censure gets more violent - its where the road rage comes in, its where a developed sense of personal honour is lost - you can really see this online - to many people we are all just usernames - not *people* sitting at computers creating community across the ether - in a core group its easy to establish that small caring community but as things get bigger that sense is lost. Its no different than the difference between a small town and a large impersonal city.

• This also sounds a lot like parenting. If a parent is being oppressive, slamming the undesired behaviour or otherwise using less gentle means, the children learn to hide their emotions, their activities and rebel. If a parent uses example and positive actions, the child learns the honor in the behaviour!

• If treated gently, the child also learns to self-regulate their own behavior. This is why why I've come to believe I have to positive "parent" with everyone I come across; even in a chance meeting I can plant a kernal of respect.

• YES! Although I have to admit, it is sometimes very hard. This is what I mean by practicing Budda's version of "loving-kindness" with everyone.

• I totally agree with this. It is not only size of city but also the "character" of the city's population. I live in a very large city (more than 2 million people in the metropolitan area) and yet there is a very strong feeling of public censure here WRT religion. I live in the city that is home to the Southern Baptist Convention, and this really affects the predominant attitudes of people here. I am much more uncomfortable expressing myself (as a pagan-friendly Buddhist) here than I am in my blue-collar hometown of 50,000 people. In my hometown I wouldn't feel uncomfortable with a public censure system since most people would likely only intervene if there was a real problem. Where I live now, you've got religious zealots who own a lot of guns and that combination makes me think that methods to enforce the status quo could get extreme in a hurry.

• I agree and disagree with the editorial. I STRONGLY belive that people let other people in society get away with way to much, but giving the finger or locking them in shackels is no way to go about changing things. I think making people aware of their actions is not wrong. I do it quite often and do so in a non-judgmental and kind manner, not only for undesirable things they do but for wonderful thing as well. I think it is too easy to say well it infringes their civil rights or is reminicant of puratin times, I think this is an easy way to excuse ourselves from the moral responsibity to protect others in our world. Of course I live in a place where the worst I am going to get is a "FUCK YOU LADY" though I can tell you I have never gotten this response, no one has ever been so rude to me. Perhaps I live in a differant place, perhaps others would be pushed of a bridge or berated for such comments as mine, in which case for self-presertvation I sugest moving on.

  The thing is I am not forcing anyone to do as I ask or tell them I am only pointing out what they may not be able to see. Smoking in a non-smoking area is wrong and I will gently point out the signs to any who for some reason choose to ignore them, if they continue to smoke I have asked them why? It is amazing how efective a non-judgmental question is to those who are doing something that deep down THEY know is wrong. In the case of the womyn who pushed into line well she reminds me of my 2 yo who will push the limits to see just what she can get away with, this is her way of learning her personal limits with my guidance. >From her conversation with her friends, she knew she was inconvinacing others but she was looking to test her limits. So if she has no parent to show her the limits, who is goping to show her them if not society? The police? Isn't that like letting your child become a serious problem before addressing their issues with limits? Adults need to be reminded of what is acceptable just as kids sometimes do.

  One thing I think is important though is that you are willing to listen to the person's reasons for doing what they are doing, this is how we learn where others are coming from and that often times people don't even know that what they are doing is seen by others as rude or wrong. I think we do need to use gentle public censure but we must be willing to listen to them if we decide to confront them.

• I think this is what the editorial was trying to say: that *some* people don't have any sense of limits, that they take the concept of adult freedom a bit too far, to mean they can do whatever they please and no one should say anything to them about it, now that they're no longer children under a parent's authority. By encouraging society to take on that "parental" role, we keep those limits (i.e. laws) and the excellent reasons for observing them in the public awareness. Just like children often state the rules to other children who are breaking them, I think a certain amount of adult "reminders" to each other would help keep people thinking about others instead of just themselves.

  But as everyone has stated there are a lot of pitfalls to watch out for. It's very interesting food for thought!

• I do not believe public censure can work. While public censure is good in theory, in actual practice it fails miserably because there are too many things you can't control. It does come down to a sense of personal responsibility to some degree, but who is to judge what is responsible and what is not?

  In order to have public censure and some sort of personal honor (similar to what happens in Japan) you must have a similar set of beliefs and goals. My DH lived in Japan and often comments how strong the culture is. Although there are different overall religious concepts, there is a basic social concept which exists and the culture perpetuates. Japanese girls walk down the streets holding hands and no one even thinks they are lesbians. Its just something teenage girls do. Men, if they lose their jobs, have shamed their families...period. It's not just personal responsibility, but deeply engrained culture.

  The problem arises, however, when what I believe is my responsibility comes into conflict with what you believe is your responsibility. If my morals/ideals are "higher" than yours, what right is it of mine to censure you? This could be especially dangerous in a community with a strong religious base feeling a need to censure someone who has done something that, although it is not wrong to that person, is wrong according to their religious beliefs. I lived in a community that, while I was a part of the predominant religion, I was a convert, and therefore, not quite as good as those who had been members all their lives. My DH, who had been a member all his life, was not good enough because he was not local. Being on the outside looking in, you could tell there was a different set of standards for those who were "good enough" than those who were not. It was a breeding ground for hypocracy, which in itself, made it difficult to remain living there and strong in our faith. If someone was 'caught' in public doing something, the person and the family's background, determined if there was any action taken.

  I believe that human nature, survival of the fittest, if you will, prevents us from using public censure effectively. We have a natural instinct to band together with those who are like us and remain apart from those who aren't. Those who aren't like us will be subject to different rules. I think it is a rarity in human history for a group of people to gather together so strongly to forge a bond that can transform a nation and create not just a personal heritage but a national heritage that maintains honor, integrity and personal responsibility.

  But, I do believe it is my responsibility as a mother to teach these values to my children as I understand them. I want them to do what is right not out of fear of public reaction, but because it is what is right in their hearts.

• Looking at this on a national level... There is a common cultural identity in Canada even though we are NOT a melting pot - Canada is described as a cultural mosaic for those of you outside Canada. :-) We encourage people to maintain their cultural roots and find ways to incorporate them into their children's lives as well as the overall community. But Canadians are generally polite...cooperative...fairly unassuming - few big egos...and we have a good sense of humour - not taking ourselves to seriously. We help each other out. We're peacemakers.

  Why? why is a society that embraces cultural difference do we have a strong cultural identity? The historical perspective is that it's the geography of Canada - our climate dictated that we work cooperatively to survive...and that cooperative spirit has permeated the general culture. Not bad for a country that's only 133-34 years old!