The responses (from another thread) made me think how interesting it was that none of us talked about how expensive it is to have children - and that is such a "given" in the mainstream, consumerist world. I hear so often about people who can't afford to have children yet or can't afford to have any more children. Yet here we are, a bunch of pretty un-rich women who are living on lines of credit and cutting our own hair to make ends meet - and those "given" costs didn't figure at all in our thoughts.

Have you seen those dumb articles they run in the financial section of the newspapers every year or so about how much having children "really" costs you? I remember my mother reading out the list of expenses with mounting disdain years ago and pointing out to me that b/fed babies who wore well-loved hand-me-downs and ate ordinary family food were actually pretty cheap family members.

I've realised the truth of that myself. The way I was raised as a child and the way we here are raising our children is dirt cheap in comparison to the financial hell that so many people put themselves through to pay for the so-called necessities of childhood - daycare, disposable everything, endless entertainment etc..

That makes us all sooo rich by comparison - we can "afford" our children and we have the joy of spending so much more time with them by stepping off the consumerist roundabout.

• I don't think MS womyn see their children as accessories or comodities. Those articles seem to act like the costs are some hidden maintenance fees to parenthood. It seems very simlar to someone who pays an arm & leg for a SUV and then bitches about the cost of gas.

  To us, children just are deserving members of the family. We would begrudge them a need no more than we would begrudge our spouse. Plus we seem to be aware of the difference between "need" and "want".

• This is something we go around and around with a lot. We just recently gave away a pretty much brand new swing, bassinett, crib and a few other things that we won't be "needing" for this baby. At first we thought we should sell it for the extra money but I decided that I couldn't in my good conscious support it by selling it but that giving it away would support someone who couldn't afford what they'd buy anyway - does that make sense?

  We asked people we knew if they wanted it and most were dumbfounded that, here we are pregnant and giving away these OBVIOUS necessities! We just explained that we have no use for them. I think its how you look at what a child needs more than anything... like everything else in this completely consumer society we are bombarded with images of what a child "needs" and bombarded with subtle advertising convincing us what being a good parent is (isn't it buying everything you possibly can for them?) - I think too many people don't realize the impact of advertising and corporate media to influence what they feel a child needs. Not to mention the lack of instinctual dependence.

  We've also had this conversation with my parents every year at this time... I need to remind my mother that, Christmas/Yule for us, is not the debt-driven thing it was for them. We bought DS 4 gifts this year... that's it. I have to continually tell my mother it is NOT about the consumerism, it is NOT about gifts, it is about the SPIRIT of YULE and what it means to our family. It is hard for her to recognize so I have to keep insisting - DON'T buy him a ton of presents! At our house, growing up, the goal was to see how many presents could fit under the tree.

• DH and I were discussing this very thing in bed last night. He mentioned that he hopes my sisters baby is a boy so they can stop having kids for awhile. They both work, my mother is raising their children, Geneva the 3 year old is in preschool, and they live paycheck to paycheck, on borrowed funds from family, and still cant keep their utilities on ( I cant tell you how tired I am of them running an extention cord to my outside outlet whenever they get their power shut off, Like I can afford it)!

  We started talking about how people think we should stop having kids too, and that everyone is rooting that this baby is a girl so we will stop. I informed him that our situation is entirely different, We havnt borrowed money from anyone, ever, he works his butt off, I stay at home and care for and raise our children, we economize, we eat and live healthy, and we have PLANNED all of our kids. Weather or not we decide to have 20 kids is our decision, no matter what our familes say. I'm sick to death of getting the obligitory groan whenever I tell one of our parents we are expecting again.

  (Sniff) On the same note... I picked up a bag of disposables today. I just can't deal with the cloth diapers and everything else right now. I'm sad, but relieved at the same time. I'll get all my diapers all washed up and fresh and clean for when I can move around better.

  We dont always buy new stuff for our kids for christmas, DS is getting a used bike. It will be new to him, and he is sad as some jerk swiped his little bike off the sidewalk for scrap metal. I'm sure he will be thrilled. We just dont get so stressed out over the gifts at the holidays. I make gifts for my sisters and mother, I'm sure in the family I live in it isn't appreciated as it might be in others, but I know I put my heart into it.

• Dh and I were just discussing this on Saturday after a trip to the baby superstore. We had a discussion about whether or not I really needed to buy a new bouncy seat for this baby. It was the only "gadget" I used a lot with DS, and that one was already a hand-me-down and I now have some worries about whether or not the design is safe. My pleas for a new one were unsuccessful BTW One of my (again unsuccessful) points was how little we have spent on baby gear compared to most people. I bought some newborn size prefold diapers, some diaper covers and a new sling. I estimate that in total, I've spent less than $200 on baby "stuff". I spent even less with DS because almost all of it was hand-me-down gifts.

  I never understand why people think raising children is so expensive, and I laugh at those charts that say it costs like $10,000 just for the child's first year of life (which does NOT include birth). Well, it doesn't cost that much in my house! No diapers, no formula, no daycare. I consider $10 each piece a lot for children's clothes. The amount of extra food he eats is minimal. We might buy a new toy or book for him even once a month if we're feeling indulgent, and I occasionally buy apple-juice boxes. I estimate we spend only a couple hundred a year on child related expenses, tops.

  How much it costs to raise children is IMO almost solely dependent on the parents' level of consumerism (which will then be imparted to the child and result in older kids who beg for everything advertised on TV).

• DD#2 has cost us about 1500 to this point unless you consider her birth my expense in which case she cost NADA! She has worn DD#1's hand me downs, her diapers have all sold for as much (and sometimes more) than I bought them for. Sure we buy her some toys and such but we *CHOOSE* to buy those and buy only according to our available funds.

  DD#1 has cost us very little too.and most thing I did buy for her I now realize were actually for me not her, me buying into the belief that babies reqiure STUFF. We buy her clothes at Value Village, and this DOES NOT mean she wears rags, or even stained or holed clothes. We get her Roots, Gymboree, Gap blah blah blah clothes that are in excellent condition. We buy the brand names because one of the ways I raise money is by consigning good finds from, Value Village,and garage sales. Having DD#1 and DD#2 wear them in the mean time is an added bonus.

  DD#1 has dance lessons and swim lessons but we *CHOOSE* to put her in those and again only do it according to financial ability. See the problems with articles like the one mentioned saying babies cost 10,000 dollars in the first year they feed this whole belief that people have no choice. That all this garbage is a *NEED* when in reality it isn't even a want!!! People would not even want it if they weren't convinced through advertising that we want them. I find it hilarious that those of us who live in the Western world lament over the price of children yet those who live in less industrialize countries and live on much less than most of us do have big families and do just fine. Everyone is feed, clothed and happy, of course most westernized parents believe that if their child isn't wearing Tommy Hillfiger and in a trillion activities that they are somehow suffering, when the truth is they are actually suffering form the very things that their parents struggle to supply them with. Oh goddess this world is a mess.